I almost never stop over to “Big Bad Orange” (the liberal site Daily Kos) but I found myself over there today to check out John McCain’s birth certificate at the urging of Five Before Chaos (side note: while most of these McCain is older than dirt jokes are pretty friggin funny- the above mentioned birth certificate is great- I don’t actually care too much for the ageist politics they represent; I for one could care less how old he or anyone else is). While over at the kos, I came upon a pretty good run-down of the current housing crisis in the U.S., which is a bit dry and number-heavy to read, but concludes with a great synapsis: what we’re seeing is essencially the nationalization of the housing market in the U.S., only, it’s being nationalized in a way that benefits only the banks, lenders, and large property owners. What the piece’s author rightfully points out: in the housing market, we have socialism for the rich, and capitalism for the rest of us. If that doesn’t say a lot to you, well, I don’t know if I can help.
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June 14, 2008 at 8:44 pm
dcbarton
what we are seeing in the housding market is a bunch of people that made bad decisions now having to face the responsibiltiy of those bad decisions. Nobody was forced to buy a house they couldn’t afford or to accept an ARM. And nobody that did either can blame anyone but themselves when they run into financial problems. The housing market will sort itself out, then maybe people will learn some important lessons and we won’t have to face this problem again for a long time. Or, the people will insist on a Government fix, and the people will pay in ways they never imagined could happen in the US.
June 15, 2008 at 12:25 am
wdh3
I don’t disagree with you that loanees are responsible for taking out loans and buying homes they couldn’t afford; at the same time, banks lent money to people who clearly couldn’t pay them back. The Fed has rushed to the aid of the lenders but has done little to nothing to aid the lendees. Historically, if you couldn’t actually afford the house, you’d sure as hell get turned down for the loan. For many Americans (who aren’t taught about things like personal finance in school) I think they (reasonably assumed) that they’d get turned down if it was a risky loan- banks don’t traditionally take big risks with their money. As far as “the housing market will sort itself out”, well, economies hardly ever (do they ever?) just “sort themselves out”- very intentional actions from various players sort it all out, and this is true here too: it’s being sorted out by banks and the Fed, who have chosen, as the link points out, to offer State help (nationalization/socialism of a kind even) to the bankers while saying “you’re personally responsible” (i.e., screwed) to people who were only looking to accomplish that “American dream” of homeownership.
June 16, 2008 at 6:47 pm
JD Ryan
On the ageism…
McCain’s age most certainly does matter. As one ages, there are certain things that are not, shall we say, as sharp as they were. Considering the stresses and responsibilities of that particular job, I think the age issue is indeed a valid one. Remember how Reagan pretty much had the faculties of an asparagus during his second term?
Not only physical/mental things… there are certain things in regards to the culture. McCain doesn’t even use email, for chrissake. To have a leader who is ignorant (and even shuns) the major media and communication method in the country is, shall we say, a tad out of touch.
June 16, 2008 at 8:33 pm
wdh3
Fair enough JD, I have to agree with that.
June 19, 2008 at 9:43 am
watercloset
Our government since 1980 has been a socialistic nation within a nation for the benefit of the supremely rich at the expense of the rest of us. All of those who decry socialism for the poor and the middle class are raking it in the socialism for the rich that we subsidize. There are two nations here.
June 20, 2008 at 10:34 pm
dcbarton
watercloset, the rich aren’t taking anything from the poor. It is the rich that produce the products, goods and services that the rest of us want. It is the rich that create the jobs that the rest of us use to aquire the money we need to purchase those goods and services. The rich aren’t taking advantage of anyone, there would be no profit in it for them under our system.
June 20, 2008 at 10:45 pm
wdh3
Oo! oo! my first right-wing commenter, how exciting. Yes, those trickle-down economics have really worked out great, seeing how the past 25 years have seen the greatest expansion of the wealth divide in the history of civilization. No, the rich take advantage of no one- in fact, they’re the victims of capitalism, aren’t they? My heart really goes out to them. And what was it Jesus said? “…a rich man can no sooner get into heaven than a camel can pass through the eye of a needle…”
June 21, 2008 at 7:47 pm
dcbarton
wdh3,
The rich are not victims, nor are they at fault. I am by no means rich, but I am considerably better off now than I was 25 years ago. Why? Because of choices I made in the last 25 years and the effort I made in getting into a better position. The expansion of the wealth divide is attributable to the expansion of the welfare state. The people who take responsibilty for themselves, avoid welfare, and work hard get ahead. Those that don’t, fall behind. That is how life works. You won’t change that by punishing those who made the right choices in life.
June 21, 2008 at 10:50 pm
wdh3
“The expansion of the welfare state”- I assume you mean the corporate welfare state, since the facts are that the social “welfare state” (a right-wing term in itself, by the way) was strongest 40, 60 years ago and has been slowly chipped away at since Regean. In the meantime, also since Regean, the corporate “welfare state” has been ever-expanding.
I will agree with you that we all need to take responsibility for ourselves, our actions, and choices, but you seem unwilling to notice the degree to which the “game is fixed” in favor of those with money and power against those with less of it. “Working hard to get ahead” is all well and good, but means very little when you start out from a disadvantage. The exceptions, the few who actually do manage to pick themselves up and out of poverty, do not disprove any of this, though they are used as some sort of “proof” that responsibility lies entirely on the individual. Individualism is one thing, but it’s not the whole of it. Feel free to keep coming back to argue your point, but you are just wrong and I’m not going to be miraculously “awakened” to the “truth” of capitalist B.S. any time soon.
June 22, 2008 at 2:05 am
dcbarton
If the “social welfare state” explain New Orleans after Katrina. Each of those people who were stranded in New Orleans were warned several days in advance that it would be bad and to get out. They stayed, then when the levees broke, waded through water to get on that bridge, then just sat there dropping dead and waiting for the “Government” to come save them. All they needed to do was walk another 12 miles to someplace dry, but couldn’t because they have been living on the welfare system so long they can no longer think or act for themselves. When Greensburg, Ks was destroyed by that tornado, they didn’t wait for the Government, they went to work. The result? While New Orleans is still whining about “we need help” Greensburg is well on its way to recovery. The difference? The people in Greensburg don’t depend on the Government to take care of them, they also don’t sit around whing that the cards are stacked against them. They just get up and go to work. The current cries for socialized health care and “windfall profit taxes” on big oil are further proof of the welfare state being expanded. Instead of limiting our driving or learning how the American economy works, people cry that big oil is taking advantage of them. People insist on more from the Government everyday, then whine about losing their rights. No, the “social welfare state” isn’t being chipped away. As far as “starting out disadvantaged”, it is just way of making an excuse for failure from the start. If you have a ready made excuse, then if you succeed, you did good, if not, someone took unfair advantage. That isn’t taking personal responsibility.
June 22, 2008 at 10:46 am
wdh3
You are a racist and a classist. I’m not interested in engaging in this dribble. If you’ve read much else on this sight, you may have noticed that I believe in a libertarian-socialist (anarchist) world- I am not the one you need to convince that the State (the government) is bad, evil, and unnecessary. You, however, are an elitist idiot and anti-humanitarian. Being a human myself, and holding the capacity of feeling for the plight of other humans, I take personally your insistance on blaming the least fortunate, least able, and most down for their sorrows and sufferings.
June 22, 2008 at 9:49 pm
dcbarton
First of all, I am definately not a racist or classist, but I do believe in personal responsibility; a persons skin color, religion or position in society would be irrelevant. That was the point of the comparison between New Orleans and Greensburg. My beliefs don’t make me an elitist or anti-humanitarian, they just mean I have s different view of how to solve the world’s problems, but in the modern world different views are not to be allowed, especially more conservative(and I belive correct)views. As for the “libertarian-socialist anarchist” thing, try reading up on each aspect. I think if you are honest with yourself you will see that there is an oxymoron to exceed all oxymorons. While libertarian and anarchist are close, even a libertarian would agree that there must be some government, although very limited. However, socialism requires complete government control over our lives, not a very libertarian view. Am I an idiot? What would make me an idiot? Would it be the fact that I don’t agree with you? Or maybe the fact that I use my 1st Amendment rights that people like you think should only apply to those who agree with you?
June 23, 2008 at 1:53 am
wdh3
you read-up on it…. you’re an idiot because you defend that which works against your interests and you attack blindly with only the most shallow of an understanding about what you’re talking about.
June 23, 2008 at 7:50 am
dcbarton
I read your link, my argument still stands. What you are talking about is just another way of dressing up socialism/communism. It uses race and class as a way to make people think they are victims, that is a distortion of the truth. Capitalism does not work against my or anyone else’s interests. But, it can only work in the interest of those who choose to make the effort to work in their own interest. Socialism, any way you choose to dress it up, always leads to the same thing, the enslavement of the people the socialists claim to want to help. Do you think the old Soviet Union told the people of Russia what they were really getting? No, they told them that they were victims and this “new” system would be in their benifit. Do you ever wonder why, after socialism/communism, the people choose democracy and capitalism? Russia went to a capitlist system. It wasn’t easay for them, they had no idea of how to do it, but they learned. There are those in the Russian government that would like to push communism on the people again, but the people don’t want it, they want capitalism.
“Attack blindly with only a shallow understanding” about what I’m talking about? No, I full well understand what I am talking about. I’ve been against any kind of socialism/communism from day one, I will always oppose it. Unlike you, I know how your system works and where it leads. You may well decide to fall for the lies about how much better socialism/communism is. I, on the other hand, have seen it in practice, I was smart enough to watch and learn. And I know I don’t want any part of a system that seeks only to enslave me to a government.
If there is an idiot in this conversation, it would be someone who willingly follows the slavemaster who tells them slavery is freedom. Real freedom comes from individualism and self-responsibilty, not from a system that claims to make “all equal.”
June 23, 2008 at 3:15 pm
wdh3
Surely you have something better to do than continue to waste my time. Nothing you’re saying has any substance- just talking points; just Orwellian opposites that are completely divorced from historical, theoretical, or applied facts. The USSR was a State socialist system (not “communism” as I use it, the link above uses it, or as it is traditionally used)- it was a State run capitalist system where the people did not have direct control, the government did. I (or that link) did not advocate such a thing. The neighborly cooperation you spoke about after the tornados- that is socialism in action; people doing for themselves, for the good of their community without exploitation or surpluses hoarded by the few from the many.
June 23, 2008 at 6:41 pm
dcbarton
I’m not just using talking points. The differences between communism and socialism are simply this, communism denies the existance of any God, socialism is willing to use God to attain its goals. The end result is the same which ever name you use. There has never in history been a case where socialism/communism did not lead to the complete control of the people just like in Russia, Cuba and China. In the case of Russia, they went to a democratic-capitalistic society. China leans more capitalist each day. Those are undeniable facts. What you are speaking of is the same old “propaganda” that communist regimes have always used. It can lead only to the enslavement of the people you claim to want to help. As far as the people in Greensburg, that was not socialism in action. It was people doing for themselves, and paying for it themselves(they refused government aid because the red tape involved made it impossible to take the aid and still rebuild). That is not socialism, it is capitalism. As I said before, and you refuse to accept, capitalism works, but only for those who are willing to work. Those who wish sit back on their lazy hind-ends will never profit from capitalism, and will always ask for socialism.
I don’t care how you propagandize socialism, it is still the same thing that it has always been. It is obvious that you are not interested in debate based on the merits, or lack thereof, but, rather, you are concerned merely with spreading a socialist proganda. You don’t seek to discuss the merits of what you propose, only to convince the ignorant to follow along blindly. The rest of us, you would force to bow down to your system that would make us all slaves to the state. I’m sure think it is a waste of time, but my primary goal is to ensure that the US never falls into socialism/communism.
June 24, 2008 at 10:00 pm
JD Ryan
Wow, sounds lik e you have a bona-fide Kool-aide drinking caveman here… “The only difference between communism and socialism is the use of God?’ Puh-leeze.
It’s amazing how easily people can be suckered. The only thing ‘trickle-down’ has done is pissed on most of us.
June 24, 2008 at 11:50 pm
dcbarton
“bona-fide Kool-aid drinking caveman”? What is the difference? Communism promises equality through government control of every aspect of a person’s life. The Russian people were all equal while standing in line for days on end to buy toilet paper, except for those in the Communist Party. France is a good example of socialism. You couldn’t get fired for any reason, 32 hour work week, 30 days vacation every year, and an economy that was going down the toilet until Sarkozy came along and started to steer France away from socialism.
Reagan’s trickle-down economic theory isn’t a cure-all. It does require the individual to make a concerted effort to improve his or her own lot in life. Socialism and communism both promise equality, neither can or ever have delivered on that promise. Economies can withstand the expense of communism or socialism. We saw that in Russia, Cuba and France. China saw it themsleves and switched to a more capitalist way of doing business. They have benefited from that move. The US has gone consistently more socialistic, and now our economy is headed down fast as a result.
June 25, 2008 at 2:58 am
Mister Guy
“The expansion of the wealth divide is attributable to the expansion of the welfare state.”
“No, the ‘social welfare state’ isn’t being chipped away.”
What piles of baloney. Learn some history.
“Each of those people who were stranded in New Orleans were warned several days in advance that it would be bad and to get out. They stayed, then when the levees broke, waded through water to get on that bridge, then just sat there dropping dead and waiting for the ‘Government’ to come save them. All they needed to do was walk another 12 miles to someplace dry, but couldn’t because they have been living on the welfare system so long they can no longer think or act for themselves.”
The hurricane “plan” for New Orleans has been the same for years & years…scare the heck out of enough people to get them to leave the city, then those that didn’t have the means to leave the city (no car, poor, etc.) would either go to the SuperDome or “shelter-in-place” (which means stay in their homes & hope for the best). This is exactly what happened. You expect people that have just swam through flood waters and watched their freinds & loved ones DIE to just walk 12 miles through the searing heat like it’s no big deal?? Could you do that?? Disaster response is one of a government’s primary duties!
Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebelius & GWB both declared Kiowa County KS a disaster area, which opened up the affected areas for national & international aid. So much for doing everything on their own in KS. BTW, tornado destruction and hurricane destruction are on two *completely different* scales.
Socialism and communism are NOT the same thing. We have a mixed economy in this country and that’s been the most successful type of system the world over so far.
June 25, 2008 at 3:36 am
dcbarton
Could I walk 12 miles through searing heat? Yes, I could, have and would again. And I did it for reasons alot less severe than threat of death. I did it just to go to town and buy a soda. I have also walked 5 miles each way to get to work in -60 temps because I had a job to go to and my car was broken down. Disaster response is not the govcernments job, it is an individual responsibility. The Government’s duties are merely to encourage trade and national defense. All else that Government does, it does of its own accord without any Constitutional authority from our founding fathers.
Sebelius and Bush did declare an emergency, but that doesn’t mean the people of Greensburg accepted Government aid. The Government aid came with enough strings attached that nothing could have been accomplished if they had accepted aid.
Tornado and hurricane destruction are different scales? Without a doubt. The EF-5 tornado that hit Greensburg caused 100% damage. The Cat 4 hurricane that hit New Orleans didn’t. Even the broken levees failed to do 100% damage. And New Orleans had many more people to do the work, and could have done alot more so far, had they not been reliant on Government assistance.
June 25, 2008 at 12:02 pm
fast eddy
“I have also walked 5 miles each way to get to work in -60 temps”
F or C???
That’s pretty remarkable, dc barton…you musta’ had a helluva’ shell on, survival gear and whatnot if it was F…perhaps you should enlighten us on your experience and background so we may better appreciate your viewpoints…
enjoying the debate on political systems however…
June 25, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Mister Guy
“Disaster response is not the govcernments job, it is an individual responsibility.”
This is exactly the bunk that the Right-wing is trying to push in this country…gutting FEMA and the like…it’s an abomination.
“All else that Government does, it does of its own accord without any Constitutional authority from our founding fathers.”
Ah, you’re one of *those* people…never heard of the Elastic Clause eh?
I seriously doubt that KS took NO govt. aid after the tornado hit…give me a break.
“The EF-5 tornado that hit Greensburg caused 100% damage. The Cat 4 hurricane that hit New Orleans didn’t.”
Let’s try this again…tornado damage in the middle of KS over a very small area is NOT the same as hurricane damage over a very wide, highly urbanized area.
“And New Orleans had many more people to do the work”
Until they were all shipped out of town, never to return.
June 25, 2008 at 5:14 pm
dcbarton
“the bunk the right-wing is trying to push in this country”? As opposed to what? Maybe the “bunk” the left-wing is trying to push? The left pushes the idea that Government reliance is a right, and the rrest of us are obligated to pay for it.
Elastic clause, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 18 of the United States Constitution
“[The Constitution shall have the power] [T]o make all laws which shall be Necessary and Proper for the carrying into Execution of the foregoing Powers and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.” Key words would be “Necessary and Proper”. Explain to me how stealing the tax dollars from one group to pay for what should be individuals’ personal responsibility are “Necessary and Proper”.
“I seriously doubt that Ks took NO govt. aid” That isn’t what I said. Fact is, Sebelius is as far left as Obama, Pelosi and Marx. Kansas did want aid, Kansans, on the other hand, no. They haven’t turned down private donations, haven’t asked for private donations, and have refused to ask for govt. aid. The signs in the area point out why they refuse govt. aid. The red tape involved in govt. aid makes rebuilding virtually impossible.
“tornado damage in the middle of Ks over a very small area is NOT the same as hurricane damage over a very wide, highly urbanized area.” That sounds somewhat elitist and discriminatory. Are the people of Kansas any less human because they choose not to live in a “highly urbanized” area? That said, Katrina did hit more than just New Orleans, it also hit Mississippi. Ms rebuilt right away, New Orleans is still whining about govt. aid. Why? Because the people of Ms are like the people of Ks. They got up and went to work to rebuild their homes and businesses. The people of New Orleans are still crying about needing govt. aid instead of just gettting up and rebuilding.
“Until they were all shipped out of town, never to return.” They chose to never return. Probably because once they got a chance to get out of the crime and corruption of New Orleans, they realized there was a better way to live. I wouldn’t have returned to New Orleans either.
June 25, 2008 at 9:36 pm
JD Ryan
Well, first off DC, let me differentiate from wdh3, in that although I have some similarities, my philosophy is quite different than hes. I think most of Marxism and by extension, communism is bunk, written in a different time when industrialization was taking hold, as was predatory capitalism. I don’t see Marxism as any more realistic than pure libertarianism, in that bot go against human nature. So don’t waste your Soviet bullshit on me. Personally, I prefer a heavily regulated capitalism with social controls, as well as a government social safety net, because ‘the market’ doesn’t give a flying fuck if you live or dies, so we certainly shouldn’t be trusting it with vital life-or-death issues just because the Friedmanites say so.
How the fuck can you say with a straight face the US has gone more socialistic in recent years? It’s been a free-for all for predatory capitalism, and social darwinism, magnified by the idiot GOP who make Reagan look like a moderate in this day and age.
“Disaster response is not the govcernments job, it is an individual responsibility. “
Really? Since when do individuals have even one-hundredth the resources to deal with an emergency than the government does. You live in a very sick “go fuck yourself, tough shit world.” I thank godless that your view is rapidly in decline and thoroughly discredited.
Fact is, Sebelius is as far left as Obama, Pelosi and Marx.
And James Dobson and Pat Robertson are exemplary figures of Christianity. What other bullshit you wanna sling? Reagan was a genius? Nixon was just a bit “misunderstood”?
Why don’t you just come out and say “It’s just too fucking bad those lazy niggers in NOLA couldn’t just hop in their SUV’s and get the hell out of town, but they were too busy raping, smoking crack and listening to gangstah rap to bother doing anything about it.”? Because that’s essentially where you’re coming from.
June 25, 2008 at 9:39 pm
JD Ryan
Apologies about al the typos that I just missed. You’d think Bush typed it for me.
June 26, 2008 at 6:19 am
Mister Guy
“The left pushes the idea that Government reliance is a right”
Utter nonsense.
You don’t like paying taxes…news flash…I don’t know anyone that does. The govt. does not “steal” money from you when it levies a tax though…that’s just Right-wing hot-air talking there.
“That isn’t what I said.”
Yes it is, but thanx for backpeddling anyways.
“That sounds somewhat elitist and discriminatory.”
No, it’s meteorologic you fool.
“Ms rebuilt right away”
More nonsense.
“They chose to never return.”
Oh really? And where would they be able to go, considering that the locals closed down a lot of the communities where people used to live (especially the poor people) so that businesses could have more places to “expand”.
You’re living in a fanasty world…let us know when you plan on coming back down to Earth…
June 26, 2008 at 9:11 am
In Which I Take Some Time To Scrape The Dog Shit Off My Shoes « Integral Psychosis
[…] following along) with this whole back-and-forth between me and “dcbarton” on the thread over here, I’ve decided to pull what seem to me to be a few of his (I’m assuming this is a guy, […]
June 26, 2008 at 9:17 am
wdh3
Are we done yet?
June 26, 2008 at 10:24 pm
dcbarton
JD,
“predatory Capitalism”? Do you really understand capitalism? If we choose to accept the risk, we get to either reap the benifits of that risk, or are required to accept the loss. If we choose not to accept the risk, we can work for someone else, but have no right to cry when they make the profit instead of us. If we want the benifits the rich enjoy, we must be willing to accept the risks the rich take. Consumers have no claim to “predatory capitalism” until the rich hold a gun to their head and force them into a lower position in life. Don’t choose mediocrity then whine when you are mediocre.
It is a “go fuck yourself, tough shit world”, although I would not have worded it quite that way. In bastions of liberalism, such as Chicago, Detroit, New York, Los Angeles and New Orleans this idea can be seen in the crime rates. You will notice that crime rates are lower, per capita, in more conservative areas.
Reagan. Reagan was smart enough to get us out of the crap that Carter got us into.
As far as Nixon, explain to me how Nixon’x coverup of Watergate is worse than Clinton sexually harassing and even raping women, then attempting to cover that up, and committin perjury and attempting to coerce perjury from from witnesses against him. Or would you rather not talk about the hypocrisy of the left?
Why don’t you just come out and say anyone who preaches personal responsibilty is a low-life racist because black people are not capable of taking care of themselves? “Because that is essentially where you are coming from.”
Mister Guy,
“The left pushes the idea that Government reliance is a right.” Yes, examples would be food stamps rather than encouraging people to work a second job or find a better job, rent assistance rather than encouraging people to find someplace they can afford or making an effort to earn more money, medicaid and welfare payments rather than, again, insisting that people have enough responsibilty and motivation to do what is needed to improve their own lives. And now the push for universal health care and bailouts for people that purchased homes they couldn’t afford with mortgages that everyone knew or should reasonably know wouldbe subject to higher interest rates.
“The Government does not ‘steal’ money from you when it levies a tax.” Redistribution of my money that I earned to someone who doesn’t put the effort into earning their own wayis stealing from me and everyone else who pays their own way. If you want to help those who have less, fine, that is what charity is for, Government has no place in that.
“that isn’t what I said,” ok, I’m sorry, you are right(if you aren’t smart enough to distinguish between “people” and “Government”.
“That sounds somewhat elitist and discriminatory” and “It’s meteorlogic you fool.” The difference between hurricanes and tornadoes IS “meteorlogic”, however, putting more value on New Orleans just because it is bigger than Greensburg is “elitist and discriminatory.”
“Ms rebuilt right away,” they didn’t snap their fingers and everything was back to normal, but they did get up the next day and go to work rebuilding, and have made better progress than even Greensburg, which is doing substantially better than New Orleans despite the difference in size.
June 27, 2008 at 2:18 am
Mister Guy
“You will notice that crime rates are lower, per capita, in more conservative areas.”
Otherwise known as the places where there are miles & miles of nothing (AKA places where not many people live).
“Reagan was smart enough to get us out of the crap that Carter got us into.”
Yea, like energy conservation, alternative energy resources, non-huge deficit busting “trickle-down” economics, etc., etc….he was a real “winner” alright!
“explain to me how Nixon’x coverup of Watergate is worse than Clinton sexually harassing and even raping women, then attempting to cover that up, and committin perjury and attempting to coerce perjury from from witnesses against him. ”
Well, last time I heard, Bubba didn’t rape anyone. Was he convicted of “committin perjury and attempting to coerce perjury from from witnesses against him”?
“Why don’t you just come out and say anyone who preaches personal responsibilty is a low-life racist because black people are not capable of taking care of themselves?”
Huh??
Ever tried to get unemployment benefits? If you did or know someone who actually did, you would know that it’s all about “encouraging people to work” ortherwise they get NO benefits.
“encouraging people to find someplace they can afford”
So, your position is that there is plenty of affordable housing out there…all you have to do is look for it? LOL…
“bailouts for people that purchased homes they couldn’t afford with mortgages that everyone knew or should reasonably know wouldbe subject to higher interest rates.”
So, the fact that the Bush Regime and the former chairman of the Fed pushed these ARMs very, very hard means nothing to you? They have no part to play in correcting the very mess that they help create? So much for “personal responsibility”.
“if you aren’t smart enough to distinguish between ‘people’ and ‘Government'”
Let face facts, you don’t have any evidence at all that the people of KS refused anything from their own govt., period. Keep backpeddling there…
“putting more value on New Orleans just because it is bigger than Greensburg is ‘elitist and discriminatory.'”
No one is putting any more value on anyone. The fact is that comparing the small but very violent path of destruction that an EF5 tornado causes with the amount of destruction that ANY hurricane causes is apples to oranges, period end of story.
Oh, and now MS is making “better progress” than KS & New Orleans…keep backpeddling there too…
“Redistribution of my money that I earned to someone who doesn’t put the effort into earning their own wayis stealing from me and everyone else who pays their own way.”
Seriously, you are just one, big, endless Right-wing talking point mouthpeice…over & over & over again…do you think for yourself at all??
June 30, 2008 at 8:32 am
dcbarton
Mister Guy,
you probably didn’t notice “per capita”, in simple terms, that means that in an more liberal area if the crime rate is 15 violent crimes out of every 100,000 people, and in the more conservative areas, the crime rate is in the neighborhood of 7 violent crimes out of every 100,000 people, the more conservative areas have less crime. It isn’t because of “miles and miles of nothing”, it is because the more conservative people have a set of principles that dictate if they want something, they earn it, not steal it.
The crap Reagan got us out of was the long lines to buy a half a tank of gas that Carter got us into with his excessive taxes on oil companies, the sort of “windfall profit” taxes Democrats are propsing now. Reagan also got us out of the high unemployment rates that Carter got us into.
I guess you missed the accusation by Juanita Broderick that Clinton raped her. Was he convicted? No. He wasn’t even charged with the rape, Mrs. Broderick just wanted to put it behind her and move on with her life. As far as committing peryury and attempting to coerce others to commit perjury, he wasn’t convicted in his impeachment hearing, but the Democrats that voted to aquit him, said afterwards, that while they believed he had lied under oath, they didn’t think “HE” should have been asked those questions. He did later agree to a settlement with Paula Jones, and made a public statement acknowledging that he had lied about the relationship with Lewinski. He subsequently was disbarred by the Arkansas Bar Association, for committing perjury, which meant that he could not practice law after leaving the White House. Now, was Nixon convicted? No, he wasn’t, but in Nixon’s case, Republicans having higher principles that Democrats, Nixon would have been convicted because even Republicans didn’t agree with his coverup. Gerald Ford pardoned him to save the country from the disaster that would have been Nixon’s impeachment hearing.
Next point. On June 25, you said,”Why don’t you just come out and say, ‘It’s too fucking bad those lazy niggers in NOLA couldn’t just hop in their SUVs and get the hell out of town, but they were too fucking busy raping, smoking crack and listening to gangstah rap to bother doing anything about it.’? Because that is essentially where you’re coming from.” My response was,”‘Why don’t you just come out and say anyone preaching personal responsibility is a low-life racist because black people are not capable of taking care of themselves,’ because that is essentially where you are coming from.” Your response was,”huh?” If you want to throw rediculous accusations around, have enough integrity not to play stupid when they come back to bite you in the ass.
Affordable housing. Yes there is affordable housing if you are willing to look for it. But my opinion was that if you can afford a $50,000 you buy a $50,000, not a $150,000 house. If you can’t afford the house you want, wait and save some more money. No, Bush has no responsibilty for the ignorance of other people. The people were not forced to accept those mortgages, they did so of their own accord, if they didn’t understand the terms of the contracts, they should NOT have signed them.
“You don’t have any evidence at all that the people of Ks refused anything from their Government.” I didn’t backpeddle. I pointed out when you tried to misdirect what I had said earlier. I know you hate this, but my message is consistant. I have a knowledge of the calibre of people in this part of the country and their principles. I also have the signs that I have personally seen in the area regarding the problems with Government Aid. You have no evidence that they did accept any help from the Government, only the lack of principles that is common with those on the left.
Regarding the tornado and hurricane, let me see if I can explain this so that you might understand it. The town of Greensburg is considerably smaller than New Orleans, but the town of Greensburg was a 100% loss, only one building still standing and it was no longer safe to enter. New Orleans had more than half the town still standing and safe. If we look at the damage in terms of percentages, Greensburg suffered much worse than New Orleans, you do ignore that and give more value to the suffering of the people of New Orleans. Why? Because the people of Greensburg were just a bunch of “dumb, hick farmers?” It was because their damage was as wide spread as New Orleans. They only got two weeks of media coverage compared to two years for New Orleans.
“Oh, and now Ms is making ‘better progress’ than Ks and New Orleans…” Again, not backpeddling, just pointing that Ms did make better progress than Ks and New Orleans, Ks is still doing much better than New Orleans. Like I said before, I don’t backpeddle, but I understand that the left can’t make a reasoned argument so they are required to try to misdirect other people’s arguments, similar to the liberal media using “soundbites” to make it seem like a conservative said something that was never really said.
“Redistribution of my money that I earned to someone who doesn’t put the effort into earning their own way.” If people want to give their money to social programs, that is the job of charity, not Government.
As far as “endless Right-wing talking points,” I know you won’t understand, but these are called principles, I was raised with the idea of working for what I want and paying my own way, I expect others to do the same. I don’t believe you are helping people by giving them handouts. You help them by encouraging them to get out and work.
June 30, 2008 at 7:21 pm
JD Ryan
“I guess you missed the accusation by Juanita Broderick that Clinton raped her. Was he convicted? No. He wasn’t even charged with the rape, Mrs. Broderick just wanted to put it behind her and move on with her life.”
And in your zeal to do in Clinton, you probably never bothered to even consider if it were true, or care if it were.
‘Why don’t you just come out and say anyone preaching personal responsibility is a low-life racist because black people are not capable of taking care of themselves,’ because that is essentially where you are coming from.”
I’m the one that made that comment, not Mr. Guy. I don’t think preaching personal responsibility is racist. I’m also aware of the subtleties that do disquise the race issue, which your dialogue is full of. It never occurred to you that a lot of people in NOLA had no way to get out? I meant, the rich whites in hotels had buses to take them out of course, but that doesn’t matter, does it?
If people want to give their money to social programs, that is the job of charity, not Government.
Because that’s worked out so well. Heck, we might have gotten out of the Great Depression sooner, had FDR just implored the tycoons to giv to charity instead of enacting the New Deal.
See your problem (one of em anyways) is that you honestly seem to believe there is a level playing field out there. If someone is poor, it must be because of laziness, not any other factor. The term “social contract” means nothing to you, it’s only something for Stalinists and Dirty Fucking Hippies, apparently. And I’d love to hear why “the market” should take care of all of these things.
June 30, 2008 at 11:34 pm
wdh3
More importantly, how “the market” will take care of these things… the track record is clear and pretty pathetic.
July 1, 2008 at 5:12 am
dcbarton
“My zeal to do in Clinton” had nothing to do with it, I will freely admit that I didn’t like him, I didn’t like Carter either. But I didn’t see anything for Carter to be impeached over, he was merely inept as a President, not a criminal. The overwhelming evidence against Clinton indicates that he was a criminal. No President in history has had as many claims of sexual misconduct as Clinton did. And the evidence was clear that he committed perjury and coecred others to commit perjury. He was aquitted by Democrats who admitted that he was “probably” guilty but shouldn’t have been asked “those” questions.
The “subtleties” that disguise the race issue are a hoax that the left uses to try to keep the right in check. Nobody wants to be called a racist, it is politically incorrect, however, I don’t fall for that trick. All I said was that the people had to take responsibility for their own actions, you drew a conclusion of racism from that. Those people in NOLA had 3 days notice. There were ways to get out of town, they chose not to go. I will challenge you to show my how that is racist, especially since I don’t distinguish between the responsibility of the blacks, whites or hispanics that chose not to leave. I hold all people to the same standards, myself included.
I fail to understand why the people who claim to want to help those with less would deny the value of charity, and insist that Government is the cure for all problems. Especially considering your disdain for the American Government.
I do believe there is a fairly level playing field. Sometimes, one has to work a little harder to get started, but it is essentially fair. I have know many poor people, all were poor by choice in that they refused to put the effort into improving their lives. The people I’ve known who have gotten ahead, did it with “sore backs and sweat,” in other words, they earned it. “Social contract” indicates that it is my fault if someone else is poor, therefore, it is my responsibilty to make them successful. It is something just for stalinists. The “dirty fucking hippies” were too busy smoking pot, hash and dropping acid to get involved with social engineering like this.
As far as how the market will take care of this, it can’t until we end the welfare state. The only way to solve this problem is for those who won’t work to get up and go to work. As long as there are people who are willing to let them have a pass because they are poor, they will never see a need to get up and earn their own way.
July 2, 2008 at 6:54 am
Mister Guy
“The crap Reagan got us out of was the long lines to buy a half a tank of gas that Carter got us into with his excessive taxes on oil companies, the sort of ‘windfall profit’ taxes Democrats are propsing now.”
Once again, you’re probably talking about the 1980s oil glut, which was caused, in part, by all the conservation & alternative energy efforts that were started in the 1970s…and eventually killed by Reagan. Ah, the Windfall Profits Tax from the 1980s, the one that had NO negative effect on either U.S. oil production or oil prices in the 1980s. Again, some actual history reading would come in handy here…
Ah, Juanita Broderick, the lady who filed a sworn affadavit with Paula Jones’ lawyers denying that Clinton had ever assaulted her. The FBI found her accounts in the late 1990s to be inconclusive. What a surprise that you would believe her over Clinton though…
“but in Nixon’s case, Republicans having higher principles that Democrats”
LOL…read some history of the time that you are talking about man!
“If you want to throw rediculous accusations around, have enough integrity not to play stupid when they come back to bite you in the ass.”
The original statment that you’re talking about was from JD…not me…try & keep up, will ya? You’re just talking in wild hyberbole from what I can tell anyways.
“Yes there is affordable housing if you are willing to look for it.”
No, there is not…particularily in VT, where this blog is based.
“No, Bush has no responsibilty for the ignorance of other people.”
Of COURSE you let the Bush Regime, the Fed, and the lenders completely & totally off the hook, because, in your mind, how could any of them ever do anything wrong?? Please, this is just silliness…
“but my message is consistant.”
Yea, consistently false…you just don’t know what the heck you are talking about on this issue.
“You have no evidence that they did accept any help from the Government”
So, your position is that the Gov. of KS & GWB authorized that aid be given out to the areas affected and…no one took it. That is, completely & totally absurd, period end of story.
“Greensburg suffered much worse than New Orleans, you do ignore that and give more value to the suffering of the people of New Orleans.”
Let me try this again, comparing damage to a small KS town to one of the largest metropolitan areas in the country is apples to oranges. It has NOTHING to do with how I value the lives of the people that live in KS or the Gulf Coast…it has everything to do with scale, which you can’t seem to comprehend. Do yourself a favor and quit talking about this issue…you’re tying yourself in knots over it and sounding like a fool in the process.
“If people want to give their money to social programs, that is the job of charity, not Government.”
That is a frequent ideological view of the Right-wing in this country, but it is not a fact.
“The overwhelming evidence against Clinton indicates that he was a criminal.”
Which is why, of course, that he’s a in jail now…ooopppsss…it’s that whole “innocent-until-proven-guilty” thing…damn you Constitution!
“No President in history has had as many claims of sexual misconduct as Clinton did.”
Again, this is just more Right-wing hyperbole here. You have already demonstrated a lack of historical knowledge, so forgive me if I don’t take your “solem word” on this.
“There were ways to get out of town, they chose not to go.”
Again, this is just false. I told you what the New Orleans “plan” was for this type of disaster. Their plan allowed for thousands of people (mostly the poor) to be left behind to fend for themselves. What the Right-wing has turned this tragedy into is an “example of how the govt. can’t help you during a disaster”. It’s just more fear-mongering in an attempt to whittle away the size of govt.. Disaster response is, IMO, inherently governmental.
“and insist that Government is the cure for all problems.”
This is a strawman. No one that I know of on the Left is saying “screw the charities, just let the govt. take care of things.” People on the Left (like me!) give to charities all the time, but the idea that small, private charities can take over for the massive needs of people in desperate times is just silly. It’s never happened before!
“Especially considering your disdain for the American Government.”
I can only speak for myself on this, but I do not “disdain the American Government”. I have disdain for the Bush Regime that has been “leading” our govt. for the last many years. It’s funny how the “my country right or wrong” crowd never seems to feel that way when a Dem is in the White House…it’s a joke.
“I do believe there is a fairly level playing field.”
Then you are simply blind, nothing more, nothing less.
“‘Social contract’ indicates that it is my fault if someone else is poor, therefore, it is my responsibilty to make them successful.”
No, a social contract, to me, implies that the people give up some rights to a govt. and/or other authority in order to receive or jointly preserve social order. Social contract theory provides the rationale behind the historically important notion that legitimate state authority must be derived from the consent of the governed. We jointly agree to a social contract by which we each gain civil rights in return for subjecting ourselves to civil law or to political authority. I personally & strongly believe in democracy. I can’t say that the blog owner here can say the same, but that’s OK…lol… 🙂
“it can’t until we end the welfare state.”
Then, it never will, which IMO is fitting, since the free market alone never has solved these issues in the first place.
February 26, 2009 at 5:56 am
Idiots Come Here Too « Integral Psychosis
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